This is a riot.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by southpawx3, Oct 25, 2015.

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  1. southpawx3

    southpawx3 New Member

    Some good friends of mine and I were a being casual and fun-loving people and making the letter "D" in many forms on a plot for fun. We were addressed by mods minorly about it but they mostly just said it was disagreeable. Then a few players created a "D" upon a larger "D" and placed a sign that said "D on D action." I see this sign as a perfectly acceptable sign, because there was indeed one "D" upon another "D." The action could be connected to the recent creation of said "D"s, but that isn't too relevant. Then after some players and I were muted for these signs and defending ourselves from punishment related to the signs we began to consult the rules, these rules happen to be the vaguest and least helpful rules in the universe (Oh, look, another opinion), the rules state the following. (Note, screenshots of said rules are provided below) Don't be rude or build anything rude. This rule is also VERY opinionated. I personally do not find anything we built or said to be "racist" nor do I find "D"s and text describing these "D"s on signs (Note, one player was muted for "offensive signs" which are not against the rules, unless you consider signs directly connected to a build's integrity) or in chat to be offensive. This proving we did not deserve out mutes related to our creations.
    All of my personal punishments were along the same lines of "starting an argument,"(LOOK GUYS ANOTHER OPINION.) I may have been egging certain staff members on at times, but everything I said was constructive (OPINION) and/or in defense of us who had been warned/muted/banned for our LEGAL actions. And my egging on and possible argument encouraging was and still is completely allowed by the server's rules. Nothing I said could be considered offensive (LOOK ONE MORE OPINION) and I didn't not feel I was attacking any players on the server therefore making all of my actions legal. Within your ingame book of rules there is nothing against "starting an argument" so even if staff DID feel I was initiating an argument, their actions to punish me were unjust because I was not provided with a rule(s) saying I could not start an argument.
    I would like to mention the "General disrespect toward staff" mentioned in my temp-ban message. I do not believe explaining the rules they were meant to be enforcing and openly disagreeing with their decisions (which I was muted for at one point) to enforce undisplayed rules could be considered disrespectful in ANY way (Oh my, another opinion).
    Multiple times I was approached to what some may see as "rationally" by different mods who were trying to tell me that my experience and their power entailed they were permitted to enforce rules that were not state or provided to the common player. At one point (I will mention this name because I feel this user was particularly wrong) Dusty said something comparative to the following (No this is not word for word), "south isn't mod so we override him. As mods we can enforce, work around, bend, and create rules for specific reasons related to a specific situation." She did not say that exactly. Again, she did NOT say that statement exactly. But that is indeed what I saw her intent in making the statement as. There are so many things wrong with this comparative example of what she said (And yes I know you can go back in the log to find what she typed exactly). To start, I don't believe staff are able to CREATE specific rules per situation. Nor do they have the right to disrespect or discredit my statements about THEIR rules that THEY provided to me because they didn't want to obey them, for their own convenience.
    I feel the servers rules are vague and unhelpful. I desire to see them rewritten with the direct intent of players in consideration with specific rules and rules that CAN be enforced and not based upon opinion. And a note on the opinion argument, yes I'm sure your mods are WONDERFULLY screened and trustworthy but if they are muting players for "disrespecting staff decisions" they should either be removed or not permitted to act on personal opinion alone.


    https://gyazo.com/3184f5c20b6f8b663b70b586aaae83f6
    There is my ban message. I was banned for "disrespecting staff (trying to start a fight)"

    NOTE: THE FULL EXTENT OF THE SERVERS RULE BOOK THAT PLAYERS (INCLUDING AND NOT EXCLUDING NON-FORUM MEMBERS) MAY ACCESS INGAME FOLLOW:

    https://gyazo.com/02cc281b8271b17fcf03322710f38fe8
    https://gyazo.com/6adacdce09cd055847d131756110d5a2
    https://gyazo.com/15d0fbf2ad32a5cd9b4ed1f888ff7331
    https://gyazo.com/0011990e785fcfc8e93563af3766cbdf
    https://gyazo.com/76d8825666bfd2303ce86d2528b9cd0d
    https://gyazo.com/e94f9e444a6c04dcf409cddc7962252b
    https://gyazo.com/582d23ea123ee2e583c08ee9009fecbb
    https://gyazo.com/bfc3b44caae44e103db185a7ee88983a



    Oh, and let the mods revoke warnings. It is foolish to not allow them to revoke such punishment.
     
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  2. Lee

    Lee Well-Known Member

    why are you even arguing about this south like its literally over
     
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  3. southpawx3

    southpawx3 New Member

    Because I am personally against the staff punishing users for disobeying nonexistant rules.
     
  4. Lee

    Lee Well-Known Member

    you did break the rules, u disrespected staff and you just twisted their words to make it sound like they were the ones attacking you when really you were attacking them
     
  5. southpawx3

    southpawx3 New Member

    I never attacked or disrespected staff. I may have agrued and debated when I felt they were treating us wrongly. Before posting this I civily asked a moderator for a link to post due to my inability to navigate the site. I was never disrespectful. I simply have a separate opinion and I care enough to voice it. If that's disrespect, please show me the true definition of respect and disrespect along with your valid argument proving my actions were disrespectful.
     
  6. TNTMan1289

    TNTMan1289 Well-Known Member

    The rules do need to be rewritten. I checked and there isn't even a rule specifying griefing as a bannable offense Yes, the players could use common sense and know that it's wrong, but there are some people who don't know what's right and wrong. These rules are the ones that should be followed and no staff member except the owners should be able to make new rules. It's unfair and unjust that rules that aren't approved by the owners are the ones to be followed. (This is my opinion so please do not shoot me.)

    [Edit] I am not saying that the staff is bad at their job and should be demoted, but I do agree with some of what south has said. Specifically what is above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
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  7. Dusty

    Dusty Well-Known Member Penguin Retired Staff

    First off, I would like to point out your loose quote of my words are extremely misleading. I did not say that what so ever. What I said was more along the lines of "Mods are here to keep the server running smoothly and peacefully. Due to the lack of very specific rules, we often have to improvise as seemed fitting. For the most part, these rules are common knowledge, and we always either verbally warn or use /warn the players to stop before taking further action." I do agree that the rules are rather vague and hopefully we can update the rules in the near future so they are better suiting the needs of our server.

    Secondly, I would gladly like to point out that JeremyC, ToraToRyu (Miner) and I were in a skype call for the entire span of this conflict. It wasn't just one personal opinion being put into this, nothing was done on impulse. We all talked about it and agreed upon every action taken. We wanted to make sure that all these decisions were as unbiased as possible.

    Lastly, I believe you need access to console to revoke warnings, which is why we can't do such things since we are just mods. (Feel free to correct me if I am wrong).
     
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  8. JeremyC

    JeremyC Well-Known Member Retired Staff

    So as a mod present during this situation, I deem it appropriate that I respond here;

    So you criticizing us and the server is in no way the problem. Nothing improves without criticism. But the way you raised the issue was immature, rude, and disrespectful towards us. The way you are attacking dusty by saying she is completely at fault for the whole fiasco is quite disrespectful. She, like all staff, was just doing her job. Our job is to enforce the rules and punish people if we deem them to be breaking them, or causing general chaos on the server. If we deem something to be inappropriate, harmful, disrespectful, or racist in anyway, we can ban/mute a person. Doesn't have to follow under the rules explicitly. Now I do admit, our rules are not at all up to date. But the idea of saying that "Starting a fight" is not under the rules, therefore I can do it, is completely irrational. Starting a fight falls under disrespect due to the fact that you don't have the common decency to talk to a person maturely about a topic. Now I understand bans can be frustrating, but I think the way you went about raising the issue was not the best. I know from experience, rant letters get your opinion across, but will cause more drama for what it's worth. So all in all, your opinions are not the problem, it's the way they were raised.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
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  9. southpawx3

    southpawx3 New Member

    I personally found your original statement to follow what I cited it as. I appologize for misunderstanding. But I do find yoir excuse of having the moderators (who still collectively are moderators and not 'higher ups'). Are still not just in acting as you did, with or without each others' consent.
     
  10. Dusty

    Dusty Well-Known Member Penguin Retired Staff

    I'm slightly confused on what you mean here, but as none of the other higher up staff members were online at the time, so us 3 moderators were the only ones who could deal with the situation as it was happening. I understand that you feel your opinion is right, but I'm unsure of what you think we should have done different other than discuss how we should handle the situation together.
     
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  11. southpawx3

    southpawx3 New Member

    I did not intend to put all blame on Dusty for the situation. But my understanding of her statement at the time caused me to mention her in regards to that specific topic. I also mentioned, I believe, I didn't see myself as starting a fight. I was correcting moderators upon their decision making in relation to the rules I am provided with. Sure I may have been causal due to it being in chat, but I don't feel arguing for the rights I was informed of by the provided rules was immature in anyway. And lasty, should there not even be a mention within the rules to the fact that moderators opinions may be used as a basis for punishment? I feel the rules need vast updating and should be updated with the consent of the player body, as a whole, for each choice.
    I am personally upset by the lack of care the staff, as a whole, puts towards the rules and information all players are provided with compared to the choices they made on-hand whether mutually or individually, and am expressing my opinions to the forums in order to inform all players of the instability of the rule system and need for updating or change.

    To defend against most future rebuttals I would like to sum up all my answers. The rules are broken and outdated. And I would love to see them fixed with the immediate consent of all current players(voting) for all choices and changes made. I may not be an active member but I still have sentiment in the server and want to see it opperating smoothly. For anything unanswered by this post, reply here and I'll get back to you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2015
  12. Dry

    Dry Well-Known Member Retired Staff

    What I agree with south is the rules
    Rules need to be updated because some staff come out with rules I never heard of
    Going back to when Lax and I were JOKING I got a random IP and put it into the chat and I got in trouble. Apparently I should of been banned for what? Breaking a rule I have never heard of -.- Seriously if you guys are gonna say these rules update them. For the whole time i've been on this server I never saw once a rule about posting random IP's in the chat or is there some magical hidden book of rules we don't know of?
    What i'm basically saying is Update the rules or at least add these rules if your gonna come out with them because IMO if I don't see a rule I don't think its a rule, using logic there.
    South has a good idea of updating them and maybe changing them.
    @Kashers
     
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  13. Dusty

    Dusty Well-Known Member Penguin Retired Staff

    I do agree with both of you that the rules are in a desperate need of an update, but that isn't really the fact of the matter here. All three of us staff online at the time gave you multiple warnings to stop, but you continued. That fact of the matter resulted in your mute and later on temporary ban, South. If you would have simply stopped, we wouldn't have had this problem.
     
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  14. NapkinDabber

    NapkinDabber Well-Known Member Retired Staff

    Ahhhhhh you're all children! The rules are good, it's all dependent on the mods preference and morals, which sparks the direction in which they enforce those rules. Unfortunately, some mods way will not lead to everyone's satisfaction and there probably isn't much we could do about that, unless you're trying to change how a person is which is a highly unrealistic task to complete.
     
  15. FatherFan

    FatherFan Priest Staff Member Moderator Penguin

    I propose a compromise, in which we update the rules to add a bit of specifics into it, and at the same time, educate the community that, they're moderators. They're here to uphold the law. Not to create laws.
     
  16. NapkinDabber

    NapkinDabber Well-Known Member Retired Staff

    I would suggest bringing the helper trial back, but I'd probably be attacked
     
  17. FatherFan

    FatherFan Priest Staff Member Moderator Penguin

    I proposed that to the staff a couple days before I got demoted.
     
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  18. NapkinDabber

    NapkinDabber Well-Known Member Retired Staff

    Yeah, it was very good training. We got to learn a little with basics instead of just starting off with a bunch of commands slightly OP for a beginner.
     
  19. Wordguy

    Wordguy Moderator Staff Member Moderator Penguin

    I would love having Helper back too.
     
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  20. Dusty

    Dusty Well-Known Member Penguin Retired Staff

    I wish helper was around when I first got mod... mainly so I could have a green nametag again... but still...
     
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